Muscle car handling: Good or bad?

[Pegasus]

I've been playing GT4 for 3 years now and have driven most of the cars. After reading countless topics about how poor American cars handle, particularly old muscle cars, all I can say is WTF?

Sure, old muscle cars were built with straight-line acceleration in mind, but do they really handle as bad as many say they do? I don't think so. Just throw on some sports tires and a pinch of traction control (yes, I know it wasn't around then) and they handle just fine. The '69 Camaro Z/28 is one of the better handling muscle cars in my opinion. Hell, I think it handles as good as some of the Japanese sports cars. Big boys like the Chevelle, Charger, Superbird and Cobra are a bit trickier to drive, but they still handle fine to me. With their decent handling and fast acceleration, old muscle cars can be quite competitive with the modern competition.

In my opinion, the Shelby Cobra is one of the best driver tests. It's powerful, light and terribly fast in a straight line and has among the scariest handling in the game. With proper technique, the Cobra can rip through the turns quickly, but if you start going all Rambo through the turns (sorry if that doesn't make sense) you could be in trouble. This is especially true at high speed where even slight kinks can be nerve-racking. That being said, a properly driven Cobra can still trounce just about any production car on many tracks. It's heavy torque can make it a rocket through the turns. I don't think the Cobra's handling is bad, it just takes a bit of skill to master, just like any powerful sports car.

Point being, old muscle cars still have the performance to run with many modern performance cars and can run with them through the turns as well. I think many people who say they handle poorly tried driving one, went in too aggressive on their first turn and nailed the wall after which they were like "WTF, this thing handles like a yacht 'Merican cars SUCK!" It's like the old saying goes, practice makes perfect. I just wish Polyphony Digital would've included more classic muscle. I'm sure they could've afforded to drop a few Skylines to make room for some more.

Okay, I'm done now. Feel free to comment!

Side note: Anyone notice that "Camry" is in the spell check but "Camaro" isn't? WTF?

[IGNIGNOC]

You're not the first to feel these sentiments, nor the first to post them. There are several here and elsewhere who feel that the handling capabilities of 60-70's era muscle cars is overly vilified. As you've noticed, the Camaro Z28/302 handles extremely well for a car of its size and weight. The same can be said of the 1.7 metric ton Chevelle SS 454. All of these cars, when driven properly, can handle extremely tough courses very well. It's actually quite pleasant to drive some of them around the Nürburgring, in fact.

Truth is, yes they were designed primarily for straight-line sprints (like the 1/4-mile drag, for example), and their suspensions are factory-tuned for such occasions. There are some considerations to take when attempting to corner with these beasts:

1) Never trail-brake. The high, soft suspensions are designed to transfer all possible weight to the rear wheels during hard acceleration, and on the converse, to the front wheels during hard deceleration. Destabilizing the car this much can produce a catastrophic spin if the transfer is not exactly parallel to the vehicle's motion. With the rear-end lifted up as much as it is by deceleration, any centrifugal force (force pushing towards the outside of a turn), no matter how small, will flip the rear end outward causing instant oversteer and loss of control.

2) When tuning the suspension, soft is fine. One of the failures of suspension tuning is to force rigidity upon these cars, when flexibility works so much better. These cars do indeed have significant body roll during a corner, but that body roll actually benefits the cornering dynamics with something this heavy. It transfers a great deal of weight to the outside tires, thereby giving them additional lateral grip. A high, soft suspension will also enable lift-throttle oversteer, which is a very useful tool for "snapping" the rear wheels around the apex of a corner by simply lifting off the throttle to varying degrees (more lift = more oversteer, which is related to the #1 statement above).

3) Torque is your friend. Look at most all of these machines' engine power maps (the dyno chart in the settings menu). Nearly all of them, if not literally all, have more peak torque (usually available at a fairly low rev-range) than they have in peak horsepower! Unfortunately, their gears are so "short," or "low," that this torque isn't really used to its fullest potential. It's also what pulls a 1700+ kg machine through the 1/4-mile in about 14 seconds, while "only" producing ~475 horsepower. Learn how to apply this torque to the road (not to mention when) by means of proper suspension dynamic, gear ratios and fine throttle control, and you can smoke many smaller, lighter cars in a heartbeat.

So, I'm definitely right there with you: the 60-70's era machines are top-notch performance, whether the JDM-tyte® crowd will agree or not. I like lots of different things, and I even enjoy driving the occasional lap or two in a Honda S2000! However, one thing I cannot deny is the sheer power, and deceptive cornering potential, of these American-Iron beasts.

[ciscokid]

"WTF, this thing handles like a yacht 'Merican cars SUCK!"

Anyone who remembers my first WR for the Nurb diary way back in the day knows that my description of the beloved Superbird was like "driving a yacht around the 'ring" I loved getting pix of the excessive body roll in the turns.

[½ A Gram]

I feel ya. and when people say "man they can't corner compared to my 1995 Rx-7, or my 98 supra, or whatever, they're doing something inherently wrong.

They are comparing a car on bias plys, and leaf springs to a car on radials, and springs suspension. Now, in gt4, i don't think Bias Plys are an option, but it still shows you what they are up against.

As was stated, Body Roll is your friend, as is a soft suspension. That factor makes these cars awesome to drive around the ring, since they are so soft, you don't bounce as much.

I was very disappointed when PD didn't include mroe races where these boys would be useful. we have a Sub 360 race, a Midget race, and a Civic race....but we don't have a charger, chevelle, or actual muscle car series? (I believe the muscle car series is filled with Vipers and Vettes in game)

[nightmare75]

I think muscle cars have the reputation that they do because the tires sucked back in the day. Tires are just as important and perhaps even more so than suspension. Like Pred said, they were using crappy radials back when these cars were new. Couple that with the large amount of body roll and high weight, it's easy to think that these cars have poor handling characteristics. Really, it just takes a set of modern tires for them to handle decently well.

And these cars definitely handle just as well or better than their Japanese counterparts from the era. Mind you, the Japanese cars were much lighter (in general) than Detroit's finest, which leads to the perception that they might handle better. I think these cars were hampered less by the crappy tires than the muscles were because a lighter car doesn't need as much traction to change the direction of its momentum as a heavier one does.

[DeltaMustang65]

I've never had a problem getting classic cars to handle in GT. A lower, firmer suspension is necessary, of course. Also, you'll want to ease up on the rear sway bar a notch compared to the front bar, since these cars are front heavy. I like the 4/3 ratio, since that is basically what I'm running the my Mustang (1" front sway bar, 3/4" rear sway bar). I also tended to use the full custom LSD back when I was doing the Nostalgia Days events. That tended to be useful in cutting a couple seconds off a car's lap time.

[vitg]

Jun 19, 2008 11:27:49 GMT -5 ciscokid said:

"WTF, this thing handles like a yacht 'Merican cars SUCK!"

Anyone who remembers my first WR for the Nurb diary way back in the day knows that my description of the beloved Superbird was like "driving a yacht around the 'ring" I loved getting pix of the excessive body roll in the turns.

I remember that WR™ very well indeed.Great fun.
I think the Cars handle fine, as usual it is just a matter of working out the best way to drive 'em.They would certainly weed out the "Arcade" style fan from the proper driving enthusiasts.

As was noted earlier screaming up to corner @ Warp 9 and expecting any Muscle Car to stop in time, let alone go round the corner is not on.
For example the "Superbird" is a fabulous handling Car once you work out it is all about weight transfer ( Driving Mission 14 is all about teaching you this).

I am currently racing a Shelby Cobra in a Tournament, goes like a cut cat, handles pretty good, brakes are not worth a damn , so gotta brake a lot earlier than want to. Do this and it turns in some pretty impressive times.

Gotta love them 'Merican Cars should be more of them.

Later.

[½ A Gram]

The cobra does not like slowing down. In the words of that guy from 101 cars you must drive:

"I love the vague approximation of brakes!"

[Pegasus]

I took a 700+ horsepower (800+ lb/ft. torque!) Cuda to the Ring today. It was running soft sports tires and a sports suspension. I was surprised at how well she got around. Even with only a pinch of traction control, the car stayed stable the whole time. She was smoother than some modern supercars with the same horsepower.

[littleefan]

Jun 21, 2008 13:42:00 GMT -5 ½ A Gram said:

The cobra does not like slowing down. In the words of that guy from 101 cars you must drive:

"I love the vague approximation of brakes!"

i love that line. i still laugh when i see that commercial